Timeline for Is it sound project management practice to make software engineers fix bugs "off the clock"?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
67 events
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| Jan 17, 2022 at 12:28 | answer | added | Danny Schoemann | timeline score: 0 | |
| Jul 16, 2019 at 4:45 | comment | added | Qiulang 邱朗 | I came across this story and it is sad to see it happen everywhere. Check my similar story here workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/136342/… | |
| Mar 28, 2019 at 13:54 | comment | added | WJA | This sounds like a company that is ripping of their developers | |
| May 10, 2018 at 22:09 | answer | added | user30807 | timeline score: 0 | |
| May 6, 2018 at 10:22 | answer | added | John Doe IV | timeline score: 1 | |
| Aug 27, 2016 at 4:10 | comment | added | Scott Stevens | Let's presume you have two developers. A) a rockstar and B) a poor performer. The rockstar has one bug per 100 lines of code. The poor performer has 5 bugs per 100 lines of code. So, let's assume the rockstar puts out 1000 lines of code a week and the poor performer puts out 100. The rockstar would have 10 bugs per week while the poor performer would have 5. Let's just say, it doesn't take long for the rock star to learn it's better to simply do less work | |
| Aug 15, 2016 at 2:19 | answer | added | yegor256 | timeline score: 0 | |
| Aug 11, 2016 at 17:44 | comment | added | Vicki Laidler | The OP did not ask the question in the title; the original generic title of this question was edited. I suggest reading his comment on my answer to get a better feel for the original intent of the question before commenting or answering. | |
| Aug 11, 2016 at 14:53 | comment | added | gatorback | Do you have an SQA plan and a scope management plan? | |
| Aug 11, 2016 at 4:35 | comment | added | Nahum | OP must be trolling... | |
| Aug 9, 2016 at 7:17 | comment | added | user2338816 |
...engineers must fix their own defects... I generally agree with that principle, but the implementation isn't sustainable. What happens when the dev team resigns? (I was on a team that essentially threatened similar to CEO.) You posted because you see the eventual consequence. Are you looking for a way to maintain the status quo indefinitely? Are you thinking that there are novel ways of making it acceptable (indefinitely)? Or are you looking for guidance on how get process changes implemented by convincing the business managers?
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| Aug 8, 2016 at 18:43 | comment | added | Theo Bendixson | Out of curiosity, have you heard of unit tests / TDD? You might want to look into making your team more test-driven. It is a law of nature that engineers are going to build products with a lower quality standard whenever there is an impending timeline forcing them to rush. Pay them to write the tests up front, and you will catch most of the bugs before they hit your users. Most bugs aren't the fault of the programmer. They're the fault of management trying to rush a thing into production before it is ready. | |
| Aug 8, 2016 at 16:17 | comment | added | Devsman | After working 45 hours a week for a year just because I didn't know what else to do with my lunch break, I got called into the boss' office and told that I needed to work more, for no extra pay of course. So I said "yes sir" and immediately found a new job. If your employees respect themselves, they will do the same thing. | |
| Aug 8, 2016 at 16:03 | comment | added | Dale Wilson | Has anyone considered the legal implications of forcing a worker who is paid hourly to work on his own time? It could be an interesting lawsuit. | |
| Aug 8, 2016 at 0:32 | comment | added | dave | Excellent idea! I've always wanted to work somewhere with formal methods. It would be great to not release any code until it is proved to be correct. There's no way I'd release before then if I had to fix bugs off the clock, so we will have an executable specification and formally verify our work to that spec. | |
| Aug 7, 2016 at 2:30 | comment | added | CWilson | One of the first things I learned about in PM training years ago was 'Cost of Quality'. It sounds like your firm has tried to pretend that there is no cost associated with quality. There is lots of research to say this isn't wise. | |
| Aug 6, 2016 at 22:23 | comment | added | Jeremy Anderson | By asking this question you've demonstrated that you don't understand the elementary basics of the nature of software. You may be in the wrong business. | |
| Aug 6, 2016 at 16:40 | comment | added | Dewi Morgan | Upvoted this terrible, terrible question that nobody should ever be asking. I would just laugh, and walk out at 5pm, and tell them unless they start scheduling time for bugfixing, they're getting no fixes. But I have the advantage that I am in an environment where the jobs are easy to come by, and can leave with zero notice. Trapping employees in such a state is truly evil. | |
| S Aug 6, 2016 at 8:40 | history | edited | Barnaby Golden | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
typo or autocorrect fixed, question is in the title
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| S Aug 6, 2016 at 8:40 | history | suggested | CommunityBot | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
typo or autocorrect fixed, question is in the title
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| Aug 6, 2016 at 4:38 | comment | added | pojo-guy | Where I live (USA), a local company that had this practice was challenged in court. The company's programmers received significant payout since "salaried employee" does not mean "management", and overtime laws do not exclude salaried employees. | |
| Aug 6, 2016 at 1:17 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @CodeGnome No, in capitalism (done right), you're paid for the services you provide. It's just crooked business practices run amok. I'd use the word "theft," personally. The same crap happens in any economic system. | |
| Aug 5, 2016 at 22:55 | comment | added | gtwebb | I don't believe Judith had the rep to comment before this answer gathered a couple up votes. | |
| Aug 5, 2016 at 19:43 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| S Aug 6, 2016 at 8:40 | |||||
| Aug 5, 2016 at 16:38 | comment | added | Dunk | I'd also become a requirements lawyer. If you claim there's a bug, I'll just refer you to the requirements document and say "where does it say it can't work like that?" It doesn't matter how broken the bug really is. If it isn't explicitly documented and you expect me to work on my own time then no thank you. You should have written it in your requirements document. Your requirements document obviously has a bug in it. Go fix the requirements document on your own time. | |
| Aug 5, 2016 at 16:37 | comment | added | Todd A. Jacobs♦ | I agree with @SergeyKudryavtsev. Please add something actionable or productive to your answer to avoid having it flagged as "not an answer." | |
| Aug 5, 2016 at 16:35 | comment | added | Dunk | You wouldn't want me on your project because I'd be darn sure that my code works before submitting it. At least that will be on company time. To heck with the schedule you created. If I don't get paid for fixing bugs then I'll make sure I get paid for all the extra testing prior to submitting the code to make sure I don't have bugs. | |
| Aug 5, 2016 at 15:36 | comment | added | corsiKa | @CodeGnome Well, there goes your next few DARPA contracts to work on next-gen stealth technology... | |
| Aug 5, 2016 at 10:30 | answer | added | Niels van Reijmersdal | timeline score: 5 | |
| Aug 5, 2016 at 8:56 | comment | added | Sergey Kudryavtsev | This is not an answer. This is a comment to the first comment (by Larry Domonico) of the question. Judith, please use a comment instead answer next time. | |
| S Aug 5, 2016 at 8:30 | history | suggested | CommunityBot | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
punctuation, word choice correction
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| S Aug 5, 2016 at 3:56 | answer | added | see sharper | timeline score: 10 | |
| S Aug 5, 2016 at 3:56 | history | protected | CommunityBot | ||
| Aug 5, 2016 at 0:56 | comment | added | David Gelhar | Does this principle extend to other parts of your organization? For example, if your engineering team can't retain qualified developers, do the engineering manager and HR director work without pay until the management "bug" is fixed? | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 23:27 | answer | added | Gus Mueller | timeline score: 3 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 22:57 | comment | added | Rob Grant | I can't believe this post. How entitled do you have to be to think that demanding free work is ethical? | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 22:14 | answer | added | Cort Ammon | timeline score: 2 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 21:54 | answer | added | gatorback | timeline score: 7 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 21:17 | answer | added | Meg | timeline score: 6 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 19:01 | history | tweeted | twitter.com/StackProjects/status/761275911593398274 | ||
| Aug 4, 2016 at 17:19 | comment | added | pay | I simply cannot envision any end result that is more favourable after having implemented a system in which developers have to do their job for free on their own time. You only stand to lose with this system, in nearly every conceivable area. You'll lose morale, productivity, and increase turnover. I'd get rid of this as fast as possible. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 17:18 | answer | added | David Mulder | timeline score: 0 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 17:11 | comment | added | Tim | This has my vote for the ultimate morale torpedo. What's the average length of tenure on your team? | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 15:47 | answer | added | Paddy | timeline score: 54 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 15:46 | comment | added | John Yetter | The system produces results (good and bad). Read Deming. Forcing responsibility for quality problems onto individuals will only cause personnel problems for you. Fix the underlying problems with your process and team, and results will follow. Meanwhile, it sounds like your management team has a culture issue to work on. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 15:43 | answer | added | JimmyJames | timeline score: 18 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 15:37 | answer | added | Ewan | timeline score: 4 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 15:23 | comment | added | Ewan | what country is this in? surely its illegal | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 13:55 | answer | added | Kshitiz Sharma | timeline score: 3 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 13:00 | comment | added | MCW | In my environment, it would be illegal. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 12:55 | comment | added | Cronax | Not an answer, but if your company wants to become more agile, it will have to reverse its mindset. Agile works by empowering developers, giving them more control over their work and the project as a whole, but most of all by accepting reality. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 12:36 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| S Aug 5, 2016 at 8:30 | |||||
| Aug 4, 2016 at 12:25 | comment | added | pjc50 | How on earth do you determine whether people genuinely are fixing the bugs on their own time, and not just padding it into the next day? Highly granular timesheets? What anti-bug processes do you have in place? What are your local laws regarding mandatory unpaid overtime? | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 11:17 | answer | added | David Espina | timeline score: 29 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 10:08 | answer | added | Medlock Perlman | timeline score: 15 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 9:56 | comment | added | user25314 | "myself and other PMs in my organization do budget time for "unexpected" things such a scope creep, missed requirements, misestimation, but it's frowned upon to budget for bugs" Who is accountable for scope control, requirements compilation and estimations? Why are developers held accountable for honest mistakes they make, but the other role players in the organisation are not? | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 9:15 | comment | added | Spratty | I presume that your "hardcore" environment encourages locking the testers in the basement for the whole time the programmers are fixing bugs, as obviously they didn't spot the bug before it got to the users. And presumably you financially penalise your customers for not nailing the requirements right down and listing all undesirable system behaviours? Otherwise what you are doing is just nasty and vindictive. You pay someone to work 7 (or 8) hours a day - if you want them to work more than that reward them for it, but don't make it a regular thing or you will find yourself short-staffed. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 9:10 | comment | added | Steve Jessop | And even if it was like laying bricks, supposing you discover a mislaid brick, you don't find the bricklayer responsible and make them knock (part of) the house down and rebuild it on their own after hours. It might feel satisfying as a punishment for the bricklayer responsible, but it's a stupid way to build a house. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 9:05 | comment | added | rdans | And making an assumption that bugs are always a failure on the part of the developer shows a lack of understanding of software development. It's not like laying bricks | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 8:54 | comment | added | rdans | "I feel like we are trying to solve a quality problem backwards by fixing bugs instead of focusing on preventing their generation in the first place" - you will never stop bugs happening in the first place. The best you can aim for is to make sure as many as possible of them are found before it gets in front of the client. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 7:09 | comment | added | Nathan | I bet you have very long pointless arguments about whether things are bugs, when it's all just work really. I don't think this could happen on a self organising team, I assume the development team have no say on iteration commitments or on this policy? | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 5:51 | answer | added | nvoigt | timeline score: 48 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 3:19 | comment | added | Todd A. Jacobs♦ | CodeGnome's Law of Transparency says "No invisible work, ever!" Bugs are the responsibility of the business, either because of budget, process, or other leadership failures. Trying to get "free" bug fixing doesn't create engineering buy-in; it's just capitalism run amok. | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 3:18 | history | edited | Todd A. Jacobs♦ | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Clarify question; retrofit for Q&A format; grammatical and semantic edits; improved formatting; retagging.
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| Aug 4, 2016 at 1:14 | answer | added | Vicki Laidler | timeline score: 78 | |
| Aug 4, 2016 at 0:58 | review | First posts | |||
| Aug 4, 2016 at 8:17 | |||||
| Aug 4, 2016 at 0:53 | history | asked | Larry Domonico | CC BY-SA 3.0 |